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[验证管理] 求助:清洗验证中有用ADE来计算限值的吗?

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药徒
发表于 2016-2-26 12:37:40 | 显示全部楼层
药窕淑女 发表于 2016-2-25 16:38
windy,想问一下,PDE公式中的F因子如何确定呢对于仿制药来说,如何找这些临床资料啊

在USFDA/EMA官网大多数可以查询到临床资料,至于F1~F5确定,可以查看ICH Q3C有详细说明

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能否给出相应的链接呢?非常期待  发表于 2016-8-15 14:05
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药士
发表于 2016-7-4 14:36:25 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2016-2-26 12:37
在USFDA/EMA官网大多数可以查询到临床资料,至于F1~F5确定,可以查看ICH Q3C有详细说明

OEL计算ADE具体公司是什么呢???有查到一些国家(Netherlands)的OEL database,但是还是有药物没有相关数据。
https://www.ser.nl/en/oel_database.aspx
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药徒
发表于 2016-7-6 14:38:58 | 显示全部楼层
感谢楼主分享
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药生
发表于 2016-7-6 15:08:41 | 显示全部楼层
目前绝大部分还是理论,因为没有大部分药品的公开的毒理数据。
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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:10:38 | 显示全部楼层
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-3-25 10:05
清洁验证残留限度计算主要有三个公式
千分之一、10ppm和ADE
前两个在国内经常被应用

今天在看APIC cleanng validation,看到这句话,当毒理数据不足情况下,即不能选取ADE(或PDE)计算时,采用日剂量的1/1000,LD50,通用计量进行计算时,还是需要由毒理专家进一步的评估,不知道这个评估是如何进行开展的??需要从哪个方面进行考虑,是否有相关的指南???@windy
怎么评价.jpg
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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:28:32 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2015-4-5 17:04
我司已经采用ADE来计算清洁限度,而且ADE还与EHS有很大关系。
EMA也推荐一中方式,也就是PDE。在CFDA的确 ...

ADE=NOAEL*BW/(UFc*MF*PK)
PDE=NOEL*BW/(UFc*MF*PK)
NOAEL: no observed adverse effect level
NOEL: no observed effect level
一般情况下针对于NOEL≤NOAEL,个人认为只有针对于两者接近时可以代替,两者不接近就一般不能代替,此时采用PDE是有“过度注意”的趋势,不知道贵司是如何获取ADE数据的呢???针对于ADE是否可以理解针对于不同的route,有不同的ADE(accepted daily exposure)??比如针对于注射使用途径的有注射途径的ADE,针对于外用途径的有外用途径的ADE,针对于口服途径的有口服途径的ADE。如此而来如果知道下一个产品的使用途径(而且只有也仅有该使用途径),是否可以相应的使用相应途径的ADE(previous),以符合实际性,而不是使用最小的ADE进行“过度注意”计算。
ADE caculation.jpg

点评

ADE需要依据给药途径来分类的; NOEL可以替代NOAEL  详情 回复 发表于 2016-8-8 21:09
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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:31:17 | 显示全部楼层
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-5-29 08:26
我记得ADE是服用的
PDE是接触的
包括生产和环境

“ADE是服用的,PDE是接触的”这个观念不太赞同。
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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:32:23 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2015-5-29 08:46
另外提出一点,对于计算ADE和PDE的难易程度来说,PDE更简单。

如何理解???

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ADE中包含更多的调节系数  详情 回复 发表于 2016-8-8 21:10
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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:35:41 | 显示全部楼层
wsx 发表于 2016-7-6 15:08
目前绝大部分还是理论,因为没有大部分药品的公开的毒理数据。

不知道对于制剂仿制药,这个数据应该是能够差查到的呢??但是不知道在哪里查询呢??@windy说的在FDA或者EMA上进行查询,但是还是不知道如何查询,望有老师指导。
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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:37:15 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2016-2-26 12:37
在USFDA/EMA官网大多数可以查询到临床资料,至于F1~F5确定,可以查看ICH Q3C有详细说明

这个学习学习,谢谢提供线索
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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:40:27 | 显示全部楼层
1、不知道楼主针对于这个ADE计算清洗限度现在了解如何,望指导;
2、针对于ADE,PDE应不是一个概念;
3、ADE和千分之一日剂量有差别,ADE能获取的情况下,选取前者。
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药徒
发表于 2016-8-8 21:09:25 | 显示全部楼层
beiwei5du 发表于 2016-8-6 21:28
ADE=NOAEL*BW/(UFc*MF*PK)
PDE=NOEL*BW/(UFc*MF*PK)
NOAEL: no observed adverse effect level

ADE需要依据给药途径来分类的;
NOEL可以替代NOAEL
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药徒
发表于 2016-8-8 21:10:46 | 显示全部楼层

ADE中包含更多的调节系数
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大师
发表于 2017-2-17 14:06:05 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-2-17 14:29 编辑
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-5-29 08:26
我记得ADE是服用的
PDE是接触的
包括生产和环境

反对。个人认为两者之间没有区别。

一个是Acceptable Daily Exposure,在APIC 2014年5月版的GUIDANCE ON ASPECTS OF CLEANING VALIDATION IN ACTIVE PHARMACEUTICAL INGREDIENT PLANTS(APIC原料药厂清洁验证指南)中定义为:The Acceptable Daily Exposure defines a limit at which a patient may be exposed every day for a lifetime with acceptable risks related to adverse health effects.

另一个是Permissible/Permitted Daily Exposure(中国出版的Q3C中文版中翻译为“允许的日接触量”),在EMA 2014年11月版的Guideline on setting health based exposure limits for use in risk identification in the manufacture of different medicinal products in shared facilities(在共用设施中生产不同药品使用风险辨识建立健康暴露限度指南)中的定义为:The PDE represents a substance-specific dose that is unlikely to cause an adverse effect if an individual is exposed at or below this dose every day for a lifetime.

后者在ICH 2011年2月版的Q3C(R5)Step4中的定义:The new term "permitted daily exposure" (PDE) is defined in the  present guideline as  a pharmaceutically acceptable intake of residual solvents to avoid confusion of differing values for ADI's of the same substance.

BTW:专家也犯迷糊(it is unclear to me whether an ADE determination would be considerede quivalent to a PDE determination)
http://cleaningvalidation.com/files/98998653.pdf


补充内容 (2017-4-13 12:20):
APIC清洁验证指南2016修订版中将二者并列
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大师
发表于 2017-2-17 14:10:33 | 显示全部楼层
beiwei5du 发表于 2015-5-28 20:46
是否可以认为PDE≤ADE值??
对于治疗窗和毒性窗较接近的,PDE和ADE是基本一致的;
而对于治疗窗和毒性 ...

“对于治疗窗和毒性窗差距较大的,PDE一般远小于ADE”——这种说法来自何处?
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大师
发表于 2017-2-17 14:40:22 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-2-17 14:41 编辑

10 myths regarding PDEs, ADEs, and OELs
http://potentcompoundsafety.com/ ... es-pde-ade-oel.html

Here at Affygility Solutions, we frequently engage in conversations with pharmaceutical professionals from all over the world regarding dedicated facilities and the underlying concepts of permissible daily exposures (PDEs), acceptable daily exposures (ADEs), and occupational exposure limits (OELs) for active pharmaceutical ingredients (1). Often, we field questions that are similar in nature and unfortunately just unsupported information, which I will call myths. These myths are as follows:

1.Isn’t there some magical unicorn database or computer program available on the Internet that will provide both the OEL and ADE for free? Sorry there isn’t, so you can stop wasting your time searching for one right now. There’s several reason why this “free database” doesn’t exist. These reasons are as follows: i) two groups of professionals establish OELs and ADEs, either toxicology professionals internal to a pharmaceutical company or expert consultants. Neither have the time or desire to work for free and most get paid extremely well. Researching and preparing the necessary documentation to support an OEL/ADE takes time and effort. Don’t be naive and discount the value of an informational product or service just because it’s not a hard tangible item (like a tablet press); and ii) the number of potential employees exposed to APIs in relatively small when compared to the number of employees exposed to general industrial chemicals (methanol, xylene, etc.). Governmental agencies, such as OSHA and UK’s HSE, tend to focus their efforts on programs that will have the largest impact. Occupational exposures to APIs won’t get much attention from governmental agencies unless it impacts the health of a large number of employees. In addition, OSHA doesn’t even have the resources or political clout to even update their existing permissible exposure limits. Now, with the advent of the ADE/PDE requirements for multi-product pharmaceutical manufacturing facilities, these values have the potential to impact patient populations (which will be a much larger population than a worker population), so ADE and PDEs will get attention from the applicable regulatory agencies, but there are just too many API compounds for governmental agencies to devote resources to deriving the ADE and PDE for you. Even if they did, you wouldn’t agree with their numbers anyway. Finally, you should also remember that the PDE, ADE, or OEL has the potential to impact multi-million dollar (or rupee) decisions. Do you really want to base that decision on some unsupported, “free” number that you found on the Internet? Get your numbers from credible sources.
2.If you have two OELs or ADEs for the same compound, the lower number must be correct or a better number. Wrong. A lower number might be right – or it might be wrong. You would have to critically review the OEL/ADE monograph documentation to make that determination (this is why having just a “number” is a worthless and dangerous practice). Lower OEL/ADE numbers might exist because someone selected a difference point of departure, or more commonly, the person calculating the OEL or ADE was not confident in their own technical abilities so they overcompensated by using larger uncertainty factors than what is necessary. It could also occur because an OEL/ADE for the compound was established when the compound was early in development and uncertainty was high. Remember, unnecessarily low OELs or ADEs cost a pharmaceutical company money, in terms of unnecessary engineering controls, elaborate work practices, or elaborate cleaning practices. The documentation for an OEL or ADE must present a reasonable scientific argument to support the number.
3.Once an OEL or ADE is established for a compound, it will never change. Nope, not true. As a compound moves through the pharmaceutical development process, I would expect the OEL/ADE to change. In addition, sometimes adverse health effects appear that did not show up in clinical trials. Therefore, the OEL and ADE must be revised.
4.OELs and ADEs are a bright line between safe and unsafe. OELs and ADEs are NOT precise numbers. They are protective, but not precise. OELs and ADEs are an extrapolation of a known dose (NOAEL, NOEL, lowest daily dose, etc.) to an unknown dose that is believe to be protective over a long period of exposure. The more uncertainty factors you use, the greater the extrapolation, and the fatter the pencil will be. A difference between an OEL of 200 vs. 233 ug/m3 is a meaningless rounding difference. Don’t overthink things and try to argue this point, you’re wasting your time. Unfortunately, regulatory agencies don’t help us out much here with their foolish practices of saying that if you’re just barely over an OEL, you’re in violation.
5.The equations for both OELs and ADEs look pretty simply, I can do these calculations myself. You can try, but unless you’re an expert with the advanced education, training and experience, you will have a tough time defending yourself to regulators or an attorney when you get it wrong. In addition, the EMA is requiring a CV summary of the person preparing the PDE. Good luck defending your number if you don’t have the relevant training, education, and experience on your CV.
6.An OEL that is presented on a material safety data sheet is always correct. Nope. Many are wrong. Some are really wrong. In addition, the SDS may be a legacy version and never get revised with a new number once new data is available. Furthermore, here at Affygility Solutions, we have seen the practice of one company copying incorrect information from one SDS to the next SDS, resulting in dozens of safety data sheets for APIs with incorrect information. Vet out your sources!
7.OELs and ADEs must be certified. Nope, no requirement to be certified. We hear this often from companies in the developing world, “We need certification.” Certification in what? In addition, certifications of any kind by private companies are meaningless. Only certifications by independent accreditation organizations based on a consensus based standard have any worth.
8.All I need is the OEL and ADE number. Give me the number for free. A number without documentation and cited references is not credible or the approach is not verifiable and won’t survive the rigor of a regulatory inspection. You won’t get an OEL or ADE monograph for free.
9.I’ve taken a webinar, seminar, workshop, or bootcamp on potent compound safety and OEL/ADE setting, doesn’t that make me qualified to do this work myself? Not going to happen. There are NO overnight experts in any field. Taking webinars, seminars, workshops and bootcamps are all good things, but all they do is provide you with an awareness level of understanding, so you know the right questions to ask. See this article.
10.If the SDS says that the OEL is “not available”, or that it is “not listed” by OSHA, ACGIH, or AIHA, then it must be “non-hazardous.” Repeat after me, “not available” does not equal “non-hazardous.” We have seen many SDSs that have the OEL listed as “not available” and these were for highly potent compounds.
So, there are my top 10 myths regarding PDEs, ADEs, and OELs. If you need a credible OEL or ADE for an active pharmaceutical ingredient, please check out our OEL Fastrac with ADE catalog. Now with over 450 compounds. If your compound is not listed, please contact us about creating one for you.

……
(1)  For the purposes of this blog post, we will assume that PDEs and ADEs are analogous.
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大师
发表于 2017-2-17 14:51:19 | 显示全部楼层
卖PDE/ADE报告的:http://azierta.eu/toxicological-experts/pde/?lang=en

补充内容 (2017-4-13 17:16):
卖PDE报告的:https://affygility.com/oel/
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发表于 2017-3-15 11:17:29 | 显示全部楼层
这个感觉很复杂,学习一下。大家有没有一些最新的资料的分享啊?
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大师
发表于 2017-4-13 12:26:56 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-4-13 12:29 编辑

The Toxicological Toolbox
https://www.usp.org/sites/defaul ... zler_jacqueline.pdf
Exposure and Risk Assessment (1080 and Cyanide): Human Health(风险评估报告)
http://www.epa.govt.nz/search-da ... ts/HRE05002-044.pdf

HRE05002-044.pdf

418.03 KB, 下载次数: 117

10_1300_kunzler_jacqueline.pdf

1.75 MB, 下载次数: 87

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大师
发表于 2017-4-13 16:27:53 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-4-13 16:46 编辑

TOXICOLOGY AND EXPOSURE GUIDELINES
https://ehs.unl.edu/documents/tox_exposure_guidelines.pdf
Residual Solvents - To Test or Not to Test - Interpreting and Implementing ICH Q3C Requirements
http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/presentationcammack.pdf

tox_exposure_guidelines.pdf

281.22 KB, 下载次数: 74

presentationcammack.pdf

172.43 KB, 下载次数: 51

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