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[验证管理] 求助:清洗验证中有用ADE来计算限值的吗?

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药生
发表于 2015-3-25 09:27:51 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式

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清洗验证的限值计算有用ADE来计算的吗?ADE和ICH中提到的PDE是一个概念呢?
ADE和千分之一日治疗量有什么区别,两者只用其中一个能接受吗?

ADE计算

ADE计算

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大师
发表于 2017-2-17 14:06:05 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-2-17 14:29 编辑
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-5-29 08:26
我记得ADE是服用的
PDE是接触的
包括生产和环境

反对。个人认为两者之间没有区别。

一个是Acceptable Daily Exposure,在APIC 2014年5月版的GUIDANCE ON ASPECTS OF CLEANING VALIDATION IN ACTIVE PHARMACEUTICAL INGREDIENT PLANTS(APIC原料药厂清洁验证指南)中定义为:The Acceptable Daily Exposure defines a limit at which a patient may be exposed every day for a lifetime with acceptable risks related to adverse health effects.

另一个是Permissible/Permitted Daily Exposure(中国出版的Q3C中文版中翻译为“允许的日接触量”),在EMA 2014年11月版的Guideline on setting health based exposure limits for use in risk identification in the manufacture of different medicinal products in shared facilities(在共用设施中生产不同药品使用风险辨识建立健康暴露限度指南)中的定义为:The PDE represents a substance-specific dose that is unlikely to cause an adverse effect if an individual is exposed at or below this dose every day for a lifetime.

后者在ICH 2011年2月版的Q3C(R5)Step4中的定义:The new term "permitted daily exposure" (PDE) is defined in the  present guideline as  a pharmaceutically acceptable intake of residual solvents to avoid confusion of differing values for ADI's of the same substance.

BTW:专家也犯迷糊(it is unclear to me whether an ADE determination would be considerede quivalent to a PDE determination)
http://cleaningvalidation.com/files/98998653.pdf


补充内容 (2017-4-13 12:20):
APIC清洁验证指南2016修订版中将二者并列
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大师
发表于 2017-2-17 14:51:19 | 显示全部楼层
卖PDE/ADE报告的:http://azierta.eu/toxicological-experts/pde/?lang=en

补充内容 (2017-4-13 17:16):
卖PDE报告的:https://affygility.com/oel/
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大师
发表于 2019-4-17 23:14:49 | 显示全部楼层
高活性药物的风险管控--常新亮,2018年3月29日

高活性药物的风险管控.pdf

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药士
发表于 2016-8-6 21:31:17 | 显示全部楼层
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-5-29 08:26
我记得ADE是服用的
PDE是接触的
包括生产和环境

“ADE是服用的,PDE是接触的”这个观念不太赞同。
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药徒
发表于 2017-11-20 10:51:29 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 volador 于 2017-11-20 11:37 编辑

http://estaticos.aziertascience.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Diclofenac-ADE.pdf
http://estaticos.aziertascience.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/PDE_sample-document-Piroxicam_web.pdf

Diclofenac-ADE.pdf

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药士
发表于 2016-7-4 14:36:25 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2016-2-26 12:37
在USFDA/EMA官网大多数可以查询到临床资料,至于F1~F5确定,可以查看ICH Q3C有详细说明

OEL计算ADE具体公司是什么呢???有查到一些国家(Netherlands)的OEL database,但是还是有药物没有相关数据。
https://www.ser.nl/en/oel_database.aspx
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大师
发表于 2017-2-17 14:40:22 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-2-17 14:41 编辑

10 myths regarding PDEs, ADEs, and OELs
http://potentcompoundsafety.com/ ... es-pde-ade-oel.html

Here at Affygility Solutions, we frequently engage in conversations with pharmaceutical professionals from all over the world regarding dedicated facilities and the underlying concepts of permissible daily exposures (PDEs), acceptable daily exposures (ADEs), and occupational exposure limits (OELs) for active pharmaceutical ingredients (1). Often, we field questions that are similar in nature and unfortunately just unsupported information, which I will call myths. These myths are as follows:

1.Isn’t there some magical unicorn database or computer program available on the Internet that will provide both the OEL and ADE for free? Sorry there isn’t, so you can stop wasting your time searching for one right now. There’s several reason why this “free database” doesn’t exist. These reasons are as follows: i) two groups of professionals establish OELs and ADEs, either toxicology professionals internal to a pharmaceutical company or expert consultants. Neither have the time or desire to work for free and most get paid extremely well. Researching and preparing the necessary documentation to support an OEL/ADE takes time and effort. Don’t be naive and discount the value of an informational product or service just because it’s not a hard tangible item (like a tablet press); and ii) the number of potential employees exposed to APIs in relatively small when compared to the number of employees exposed to general industrial chemicals (methanol, xylene, etc.). Governmental agencies, such as OSHA and UK’s HSE, tend to focus their efforts on programs that will have the largest impact. Occupational exposures to APIs won’t get much attention from governmental agencies unless it impacts the health of a large number of employees. In addition, OSHA doesn’t even have the resources or political clout to even update their existing permissible exposure limits. Now, with the advent of the ADE/PDE requirements for multi-product pharmaceutical manufacturing facilities, these values have the potential to impact patient populations (which will be a much larger population than a worker population), so ADE and PDEs will get attention from the applicable regulatory agencies, but there are just too many API compounds for governmental agencies to devote resources to deriving the ADE and PDE for you. Even if they did, you wouldn’t agree with their numbers anyway. Finally, you should also remember that the PDE, ADE, or OEL has the potential to impact multi-million dollar (or rupee) decisions. Do you really want to base that decision on some unsupported, “free” number that you found on the Internet? Get your numbers from credible sources.
2.If you have two OELs or ADEs for the same compound, the lower number must be correct or a better number. Wrong. A lower number might be right – or it might be wrong. You would have to critically review the OEL/ADE monograph documentation to make that determination (this is why having just a “number” is a worthless and dangerous practice). Lower OEL/ADE numbers might exist because someone selected a difference point of departure, or more commonly, the person calculating the OEL or ADE was not confident in their own technical abilities so they overcompensated by using larger uncertainty factors than what is necessary. It could also occur because an OEL/ADE for the compound was established when the compound was early in development and uncertainty was high. Remember, unnecessarily low OELs or ADEs cost a pharmaceutical company money, in terms of unnecessary engineering controls, elaborate work practices, or elaborate cleaning practices. The documentation for an OEL or ADE must present a reasonable scientific argument to support the number.
3.Once an OEL or ADE is established for a compound, it will never change. Nope, not true. As a compound moves through the pharmaceutical development process, I would expect the OEL/ADE to change. In addition, sometimes adverse health effects appear that did not show up in clinical trials. Therefore, the OEL and ADE must be revised.
4.OELs and ADEs are a bright line between safe and unsafe. OELs and ADEs are NOT precise numbers. They are protective, but not precise. OELs and ADEs are an extrapolation of a known dose (NOAEL, NOEL, lowest daily dose, etc.) to an unknown dose that is believe to be protective over a long period of exposure. The more uncertainty factors you use, the greater the extrapolation, and the fatter the pencil will be. A difference between an OEL of 200 vs. 233 ug/m3 is a meaningless rounding difference. Don’t overthink things and try to argue this point, you’re wasting your time. Unfortunately, regulatory agencies don’t help us out much here with their foolish practices of saying that if you’re just barely over an OEL, you’re in violation.
5.The equations for both OELs and ADEs look pretty simply, I can do these calculations myself. You can try, but unless you’re an expert with the advanced education, training and experience, you will have a tough time defending yourself to regulators or an attorney when you get it wrong. In addition, the EMA is requiring a CV summary of the person preparing the PDE. Good luck defending your number if you don’t have the relevant training, education, and experience on your CV.
6.An OEL that is presented on a material safety data sheet is always correct. Nope. Many are wrong. Some are really wrong. In addition, the SDS may be a legacy version and never get revised with a new number once new data is available. Furthermore, here at Affygility Solutions, we have seen the practice of one company copying incorrect information from one SDS to the next SDS, resulting in dozens of safety data sheets for APIs with incorrect information. Vet out your sources!
7.OELs and ADEs must be certified. Nope, no requirement to be certified. We hear this often from companies in the developing world, “We need certification.” Certification in what? In addition, certifications of any kind by private companies are meaningless. Only certifications by independent accreditation organizations based on a consensus based standard have any worth.
8.All I need is the OEL and ADE number. Give me the number for free. A number without documentation and cited references is not credible or the approach is not verifiable and won’t survive the rigor of a regulatory inspection. You won’t get an OEL or ADE monograph for free.
9.I’ve taken a webinar, seminar, workshop, or bootcamp on potent compound safety and OEL/ADE setting, doesn’t that make me qualified to do this work myself? Not going to happen. There are NO overnight experts in any field. Taking webinars, seminars, workshops and bootcamps are all good things, but all they do is provide you with an awareness level of understanding, so you know the right questions to ask. See this article.
10.If the SDS says that the OEL is “not available”, or that it is “not listed” by OSHA, ACGIH, or AIHA, then it must be “non-hazardous.” Repeat after me, “not available” does not equal “non-hazardous.” We have seen many SDSs that have the OEL listed as “not available” and these were for highly potent compounds.
So, there are my top 10 myths regarding PDEs, ADEs, and OELs. If you need a credible OEL or ADE for an active pharmaceutical ingredient, please check out our OEL Fastrac with ADE catalog. Now with over 450 compounds. If your compound is not listed, please contact us about creating one for you.

……
(1)  For the purposes of this blog post, we will assume that PDEs and ADEs are analogous.
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大师
发表于 2017-4-13 12:26:56 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-4-13 12:29 编辑

The Toxicological Toolbox
https://www.usp.org/sites/defaul ... zler_jacqueline.pdf
Exposure and Risk Assessment (1080 and Cyanide): Human Health(风险评估报告)
http://www.epa.govt.nz/search-da ... ts/HRE05002-044.pdf

HRE05002-044.pdf

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10_1300_kunzler_jacqueline.pdf

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大师
发表于 2017-4-13 16:27:53 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 roadman 于 2017-4-13 16:46 编辑

TOXICOLOGY AND EXPOSURE GUIDELINES
https://ehs.unl.edu/documents/tox_exposure_guidelines.pdf
Residual Solvents - To Test or Not to Test - Interpreting and Implementing ICH Q3C Requirements
http://www.usp.org/sites/default/files/usp_pdf/EN/USPNF/presentationcammack.pdf

tox_exposure_guidelines.pdf

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presentationcammack.pdf

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大师
发表于 2017-4-13 17:30:25 | 显示全部楼层
COMPREHENSIVE GUIDE
REGISTRY OF TOXIC EFFECTS OF CHEMICAL SUBSTANCES
2016
http://www.ccohs.ca/products/Sup ... glish/rte_guide.pdf

rte_guide.pdf

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药士
发表于 2015-3-25 09:34:56 | 显示全部楼层
反复洗合格吧。
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药生
发表于 2015-3-25 09:47:15 | 显示全部楼层
有用的
意思基本一样
ADE/PDE 和每日日治疗剂量的千分之一 不同  前者貌似更合理 后者是某统一标准 不适用某些毒性较强 活性较高的药品
我认为国内只用一个是认可的 最好是几种方法同时计算 选择更合理的
欧盟附录15有提及但还没生效,EMA的某指南(基于健康暴露限值在不同药品共线设施的应用---名字很长,我说的也不准确)近年6月1日生效,也对此有提及。
  

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药士
发表于 2015-3-25 10:05:03 | 显示全部楼层
清洁验证残留限度计算主要有三个公式
千分之一、10ppm和ADE
前两个在国内经常被应用
ADE数据比较少甚至没有被写国内的文献中
但这才是真正从安全因素考虑的限度
尤其对于毒性药物应该考虑使用此标准
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药徒
发表于 2015-3-25 10:15:12 | 显示全部楼层
(ˇˍˇ) 想~问一下 现在还有毒性测试吗?
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药生
 楼主| 发表于 2015-3-25 12:49:52 | 显示全部楼层
sunfly 发表于 2015-3-25 09:47
有用的
意思基本一样
ADE/PDE 和每日日治疗剂量的千分之一 不同  前者貌似更合理 后者是某统一标准 不适用 ...

谢谢,我也是看了EMA的指南和PDA TR 29均有提及,以后是不是就要求用PDE计算了
现在还是有前两种的
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药生
 楼主| 发表于 2015-3-25 12:51:47 | 显示全部楼层
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-3-25 10:05
清洁验证残留限度计算主要有三个公式
千分之一、10ppm和ADE
前两个在国内经常被应用

谢谢宏伟老师,以后也考虑加入这个计算方法。
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药生
 楼主| 发表于 2015-3-25 12:53:30 | 显示全部楼层
ivan 发表于 2015-3-25 10:15
(ˇˍˇ) 想~问一下 现在还有毒性测试吗?

研发临床不是很清楚呢,对于有毒的药物,应该要测试吧
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药徒
发表于 2015-4-5 17:04:16 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 windy 于 2015-4-5 17:09 编辑

我司已经采用ADE来计算清洁限度,而且ADE还与EHS有很大关系。
EMA也推荐一中方式,也就是PDE。在CFDA的确认与验证征求意见稿中,已经提到PDE。
运用PDE/ADE3单独来计算清洁限度是可以接受的,并且现在观点更注重“安全距离”。
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药师
发表于 2015-4-6 13:30:28 | 显示全部楼层
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-3-25 10:05
清洁验证残留限度计算主要有三个公式
千分之一、10ppm和ADE
前两个在国内经常被应用

我们现在只用了前两个,ADE目前还没有用。现在看来应该用ADE比较好啦。马上推进。
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药士
发表于 2015-5-28 20:31:47 | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 beiwei5du 于 2015-5-28 20:48 编辑

The draft EMA/CHMP/CVMP/SWP/19430/2012 makes reference to the Permitted Daily Exposure (PDE). The PDE uses the no observed effect level (NOEL) instead of the no observed adverse effect level (NOAEL) used in the ADE calculation. The PDE may also be used as alternative to the ADE to calculate the MACO.

EMA/CHMP/CVMP/SWP/19430/2012 草案中引用了允许日暴露(PDE)值。PDE采用了无可见影响水平(NOEL)代替ADE中无可见不良反应水平(NOAEL)用于的计算。PDE 值也可以用于代替ADE 值来计算MACO 值。


但是NOEL和NOAEL有什么区别呢??
同时ADE\PDE\NOEL\NOAEL\OEL\TDD数据可以通过哪种途径获取呢???@hongwei2000 @谢大侠来了
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药士
发表于 2015-5-28 20:33:37 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2015-4-5 17:04
我司已经采用ADE来计算清洁限度,而且ADE还与EHS有很大关系。
EMA也推荐一中方式,也就是PDE。在CFDA的确认 ...

If OEL data is available, the ADE can be derived from the OEL.
如果可以获得OEL值,则可以从OEL值计算ADE值。

我咨询一下OEL在哪里可以获取呢??还有就是如何通过OEL计算ADE值呢??谢谢你!
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药士
发表于 2015-5-28 20:33:46 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2015-4-5 17:04
我司已经采用ADE来计算清洁限度,而且ADE还与EHS有很大关系。
EMA也推荐一中方式,也就是PDE。在CFDA的确认 ...

If OEL data is available, the ADE can be derived from the OEL.
如果可以获得OEL值,则可以从OEL值计算ADE值。

我咨询一下OEL在哪里可以获取呢??还有就是如何通过OEL计算ADE值呢??谢谢你!
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药士
发表于 2015-5-28 20:46:20 | 显示全部楼层
sunfly 发表于 2015-3-25 09:47
有用的
意思基本一样
ADE/PDE 和每日日治疗剂量的千分之一 不同  前者貌似更合理 后者是某统一标准 不适用 ...

是否可以认为PDE≤ADE值??
对于治疗窗和毒性窗较接近的,PDE和ADE是基本一致的;
而对于治疗窗和毒性窗差距较大的,PDE一般远小于ADE,和实际差距较大??

而对于ADE,根据经验值是可以通过TDD/SF(SF一般选取1000)来代替的?但是最最准确的还是用ADE进行计算??
The acceptance criteria preferably should be based on the Acceptable Daily Exposure (ADE) calculations whenever this data is available. The Acceptable Daily Exposure defines a limit at which a patient may be exposed every day for a lifetime with acceptable risks related to adverse health effects.
选自《APIC清洁验证指南》
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药士
发表于 2015-5-29 08:26:22 | 显示全部楼层
beiwei5du 发表于 2015-5-28 20:31
The draft EMA/CHMP/CVMP/SWP/19430/2012 makes reference to the Permitted Daily Exposure (PDE). The PD ...

我记得ADE是服用的
PDE是接触的
包括生产和环境
但来源记不得了
有时间找找看哈
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药徒
发表于 2015-5-29 08:40:11 | 显示全部楼层
beiwei5du 发表于 2015-5-28 20:33
If OEL data is available, the ADE can be derived from the OEL.
如果可以获得OEL值,则可以从OEL值计 ...

对于仿制药来说,建议可以到USFDA和EMEA官网查询到毒理药理资料,可以查询到NOAEL/LOAEL/NOEL数据;
对于新药来说,相关数据只能从客户或自己公司临床研究数据得来。
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药徒
发表于 2015-5-29 08:46:31 | 显示全部楼层
beiwei5du 发表于 2015-5-28 20:33
If OEL data is available, the ADE can be derived from the OEL.
如果可以获得OEL值,则可以从OEL值计 ...


另外提出一点,对于计算ADE和PDE的难易程度来说,PDE更简单。
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药士
发表于 2015-5-29 12:28:19 | 显示全部楼层
hongwei2000 发表于 2015-5-29 08:26
我记得ADE是服用的
PDE是接触的
包括生产和环境

,有线索望分享!
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药士
发表于 2015-5-29 12:28:44 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2015-5-29 08:40
对于仿制药来说,建议可以到USFDA和EMEA官网查询到毒理药理资料,可以查询到NOAEL/LOAEL/NOEL数据;
对于 ...

谢谢提醒!谢谢指导!
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药生
 楼主| 发表于 2016-2-25 16:38:15 | 显示全部楼层
windy 发表于 2015-5-29 08:46
另外提出一点,对于计算ADE和PDE的难易程度来说,PDE更简单。

windy,想问一下,PDE公式中的F因子如何确定呢对于仿制药来说,如何找这些临床资料啊
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